Full Horror of Waterboarding to Be Demonstrated
Monday, November 5, 12 noon, at 10th & Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Washington, DC
On the eve of the Senate Judiciary Committee vote on the nomination of Judge Michael B. Mukasey, a group of human rights activists will demonstrate waterboarding at the Justice Department, 10th & Pennsylvania, NW.
The volunteer torture victim will demonstrate what victims of U.S. government torture experience -- with one important exception. In this demonstration, the victim can stop the procedure at any time. In U.S. government torture, the victim is not afforded this luxury.
An invitation is being extended to persons with special difficulty understanding that waterboarding is torture: Judge Michael Mukasey, presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani, and members of the Office of Legal Counsel.
Also invited are Senators Schumer and Feinstein and any others, who feel that the best we can do is accept an Attorney General willing to turn a blind eye to torture.
For more information: 917-204-0927.
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www.VelvetRevolution.us
Waterboarding
Maybe you could offer to let the esteemed persons listed above experience the joy of waterboarding for themselves.
Proud mama moment :o)
I got a terrific son , with autism spectrum disorder, who decided to do an informative speech about torture in front of his Speech Class. He did this on his own, I didn't even know he chose that topic! He did a lot of research and condensed it all into a Powerpoint presentation with graphic designs . His topic had subtopics with valid points for each, from his research. He points out in his outline (among many other valid points) how torture not only has adverse affects on the one being tortured , but also on the family of the tortured, the society of the nations (torturing and being tortured), and even upon the interrogators . The speech, since it is required to be in the informative style, not persuasive, is based on studies that he found in his research. The facts and figures speak for themselves.
Proud Mama
You should be proud of your son. Could you post his speech please. I would love to read it and am sure many others would too.
Unfortunately , plagiarism issues prohibit it ,
but not my bragging rights ;-D
Thank you so much for asking, I will pass along your supportive comments to him !
please upload
Please upload your son's presentation. I think it would be informative and useful to us all!
It is fair use, especially for academic purposes.
You are allowed to post your son's work. It is no issue since it is an academic paper, especially if he cited his sources. I wouldn't worry about people plagiarizing his work, else nobody would print books, edit wikipedia, write articles etc. for fear of plagiarism. Putting it on the internet actually makes it easier for teachers to detect if someone else plagiarized from him.
"Torture"
Let's say your son was being held by terrorists who had hijacked an airplane. Let's also say the government had in custody someone they suspected of knowing exactly how to terminate the terrorists' mission, thereby saving you son. Would you then consent to waterboarding of that one person? Or would you let your very own son die?
Emotional terrorism
This is disgusting; such situations don't exist. They were constructed as justification for immoral acts.
Torture does not produce reliable information - PERIOD! These "ticking time-bomb" scenarios are hypothetical situations that have never been shown to exist. Their promotion is merely emotional terrorism meant to suppress our outrage and quiet our disapproval over barbaric acts performed by our own government.
waterboarding
I'm with CodePink. Invite folks to share the experience.
And PLEASE film this, both the victim and the viewers, and post on YouTube. The more who see this, the better.
waterboard lessons
Waterboarding Training video
Necessity
This is what has the liberals all up in arms (figuratively speaking of course)? There are far worse tortures than this! I recommend you read into the history of interrogation and torture before condemning the US for using this technique.
As a matter of fact, I know an ex-army interrogator who served in the First Gulf War. He told me about torture techniques which far surpass water boarding.
There is an interesting phenomenon that occurs when a person is tortured for an extended period of time. The victim bonds with his/her torturer on almost familial level. This occurs often in extreme cases of torture beyond the level of water boarding though. I suppose it's possible in the case of water boarding, but this technique, like many interrogation techniques, causes more psychological harm than physical.
If you consider some of the tortures devised by the Russians, Chinese, and Germans during the Second World War and the Cold War, this technique is relatively harmless in a physical sense. Psychologically of course, it could cause some long-term damage, but it is relatively humane compared to other techniques that COULD be employed.
For example, the Nazis often performed torture merely for the sake of torture. And there were really no limits to what some of them could do. In fact, they were encouraged to experiment, to see just how far they could take it. They were only limited by their imagination.
As I'm sure you can imagine such freedoms led to unimaginable acts which is why the US is actually on a higher moral ground that people give them credit for.
Of course, this water boarding technique is a big deal in the media now, but there are plenty of other techniques the US uses which are probably quite a bit more controversial than water boarding.
And the interrogator who does use torture techniques may not enjoy his/her work very much, but there are always a small percentage of military personnel who actually enjoy harming other people. Isn't obvious that the military would attract such borderline personalities? Oh of course you can say they try to weed out psychotics, but a recruiter with a questionnaire is no professional psychologist. The psychotic types slip right through all the time; And often, if they are borderline enough--in other words if they follow orders yet are sadists--then their propensity for sadism is often exploited to a degree.
There is a sort of complicity amongst the ranks where the inner circles of the military knowingly nurture and develop such sadism while outwardly portraying a different picture.
Often when you meet military personnel they may seem like ordinary, polite, every day sort of people, and many are. But there are far more sick minds in the service than you'd like to believe as a tax payer.
I think a good comparison is the meat industry. Everyone knows animals are slaughtered for our meat, but people don't know it on a visceral and intimate level. It is an abstract idea to most people that the meat on their plate suffered and died so they could have the luxury of a steak dinner.
Similarly, people aren't aware of what it takes to accomplish military goals on a visceral and intimate level just so we Americans can enjoy our status as the world's premier hyper power and economic powerhouse.
Sure you can read some war stories and that gets you closer. But even those stories are usually portrayed with sheen of adventure and romance. Even films and books that are critical of war tend to distort it's realities due to moral prejudices. No, to really understand the actions and personalities driving our war machine, you have to just join the military as I did.
In my opinion, the general public has to face up to the harsh realities of military confrontation, especially if they are going to support it with their taxes, and their complicity.
Just like a meat eater, why act surprised when you see someone skinning an animal alive? Or an animal dying a slow death in a slaughter house? Sure it's terrible, but it's just what happens so you can eat yer meat and wear yer leather jacket. War: sure it's terrible but it's just what is done so you can fill yer tank and hold your head up high.
Who Would Jesus Torture?
Who Would Jesus Torture?
One of the more peculiar aspects of the views of most Conservatives on torture is their propensity for dubious scenarios. For instance: Suppose you knew for certain…Only God knows anything for certain. And if God has told you—for certain that someone knows where the bomb is—then why doesn’t He tell you where the bomb is—for certain. Are you saying God wants you to torture people?
On closer inspection the favored Conservative scenario for torture reveals a curious conclusion. It begins: suppose we knew for certain that a certain man knows exactly where a nuclear weapon is and we also know for certain that torturing the man would reveal the information in time for us to disarm the bomb. For certain.
Interesting scenario. Very instructive. Let us tweak the scenario a bit. Suppose you hit the terror cell that planted the bomb and everyone was dead except for one small, female child. The child is a true believer who is quite certain that you are an infidel. As I understand Conservative logic, most Conservatives would torture the child. This was recently reinforced by a certain Aryan on Aryan talk radio. We shall give the Aryan a code name: Wild Pig on His Knees. Wild Pig on His Knees was driven to read a letter from a waitress on the air. In the letter the waitress said that she hated children. Wild Pig on His Knees is one of the Gang of Three Aryans who populate the Conservative wing of Aryan Radio. This Gang of Three say what many Conservatives believe but fear to utter. Namely that they believe that Jack Bauer style torture should be the rule not exception against enemies of the United States and people they dislike or disapprove of. Wild Pig on His Knees is especially vocal in his denunciation of people who do not meet the Aryan ideal. He has repeatedly stated that certain people should not have the right to vote, have children or even to saved by firemen from a fire. Rather like Adolf Hitler, Wild Pig on His Knees believes he has the right to determine which human life is worthwhile and which is not. Or as he renders it: He believes he is the sole arbiter of who is stupid.
While the words of Aryan Radio hosts such as Wild Pig on His knees seem outrageous enough, what is truly outrageous is how the Conservative government acts on those words. There are people that anyone who is either honest or intelligent would conclude have been tortured either by our government or by governments they were rendered to. Governments with a history of torture. It is instructive to note that all the victims who honest people believe have been tortured are of either a different race or a different religion than the President. Moreover, the only US citizens who have been held incommunicado in a manner inconsistent with the US constitution because they were suspected to be terrorists were of either a different race or a different religion than the President. Looks like an Aryan principle is involved here.
But I digress. What is that surprising principle that we can garner from the way Aryans like Wild Pig on His Knees salivate over torture? First I thought the principle was that they would torture anyone even a small child to save their own hides. In fact, I went further down this road. Suppose you know for certain that torturing one innocent person to death would stop a nuclear bomb from going off or reveal the position of that bomb to you. If a conservative is in charge then that innocent will not see her next birthday.
Is that all there is I asked myself? Is this where torture ends? Then I realized something. All of our enemies now know that as long as Conservatives are in charge torture as a means to extract information is in effect. The only thing more certain that is that lying about torture is also in effect. Conservatives lie about torture in two ways. First they try to redefine torture. For Conservatives there is one and only one reason to redefine torture. Conservatives want to get away with torturing people. The second form of lying that conservatives do about torture is denial. To hear this type of lying just walk up to the nearest administration official and ask them if they are torturing anyone. Let the lies begin.
Ok, so our enemies know that Conservative equals torture and that the conservatives now hold the executive branch of government. How will our adversaries behave? Given what are enemies say they believe, they would be more than willing to sacrifice their own to prove a point. So one might imagine that our adversaries would send out cells each of whom is certain they know the correct location of a nuclear device. Each member or the cell is sworn to secrecy not to reveal the information even under torture. Conservatives believe their Nazi derived means of torture are fool proof and would work on anyone. If the Conservatives are right then after the cells are discovered the false locations would be revealed. All of the locations would be under surveillance by human and electronic means. So the revelation of the locations would be confirmation that information has been extracted by means of torture. One can imagine that our adversaries might let this happen many times before coming to a conclusion. What conclusion would that be? Why don’t we let Conservatives tell us what that conclusion would be or what our enemies would do next? Conservatives believe themselves to be so good at predicting the future. If you say you know for certain that a certain man knows where the bomb is and you furthermore know for certain that torturing him will reveal the location then you are saying you can predict the future. Why Conservative prognosticators must be almost as good as those global warming types who tell us we must live in cold caves and eat grass because they can predict exactly what will happen 1000 years from now. Even though we can’t accurately predict the current hurricane season.
It would not surprise me if conservatives tried to say something like: you’re giving our enemies ideas they would not otherwise have had. If so, this would betray either the ignorance or the stupidity of Conservatives. Let’s see, the most recent movie I have seen wherein a group of people were deliberately fed false information so that could reveal it under torture was the DaVinci code. Given some the religious implications in the DaVinci Code, Conservatives may have been forbidden to watch it. Let’s try something more benign. In Star Wars, under duress, one of the characters reveals false information about the location of the rebel base. Not ringing a bell yet Conservatives? Let’s get old. Really old. Remember the Trojan Horse? The concepts: put something into the enemy camp that appears to be one thing but is actually another. Okay, okay. Conservatives only understand one thing. Remember in the Bible when Abraham passes off his wife as his sister and when the king finds out he says: are you trying to get me condemned to hell for committing a sin without being aware of it?
So we can safely say we have the torture President and he is head of the Torture Party. Let’s replace Hail to the Chief with the sounds screams. Let’s change the names of government agencies to names like Ministry of Pain and Ministry of Fear. The names of the Presidents men could become Torture Czar, Torture Lord, or Minister of Pain. And as long as I am indulging in low humor wherein nothing I say bears any resemblance to anyone or anything living or dead. Let me say as a joke, a parody, a farce, that as sure as there were nukes in Iraq and that’s what our men and women are getting maimed and killed there for; I am just as certain he said, facetiously, nudge, nudge, wink, wink—that every adult male conservative in the country knows exactly where every gram of illegal and contraband radioactive substances are on the face of earth. Yes he said, straining to haul a one ton block of salt with his tongue firmly planted in his check, I am absolutely certain that any adult male who happens to conservative know exactly where each and every one of the illegal and dangerous contraband nukes are…How do I know this you ask? Why that information is classified. If I told you I would have to….
Finally, let us note in passing that if you want torture you must vote for conservatives in both the congress and for the presidency. Only conservatives are soothed to sleep by the screams of the damned. It probably reminds them of where they will spend eternity. No liberal or progressive will torture people. Only conservatives enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on their fellow human beings—and lying about it.
Great point but Divisive Labeling
Hi Nomoreoilwars,
I liked your post/article. The only thing I'd suggest to reconsider is the labeling of "Conservatives" as torture supporters. I would suggest that the "Liberal vs. Conservative" dichotomy is itself a macroscopic Trojan Horse, serving the old tactic "divide and conquer". The labels themselves are amorphous, meaning different things to different people. For example, although all seekers of the Republican nomination save one -Dr. Ron Paul- do support torture, many people consider Dr. Paul, who is the champion of the Constitution, to be the only true Conservative in the race. In fact, one can make a strong case that being anti torture, anti war, and pro personal liberty are the traditional American values espoused by the founders and enshrined in our federal Constitution, making those who seek to CONSERVE such values, by definition, CONSERVatives. That's why many freedom-loving, torture-opposing, self-described Conservatives -who are flocking to the Ron Paul banner in droves- consider the George Cheney/Rudy McRomneybots of the world to be, ironically enough, Liberals.
Now, it's not my purpose to make that case, because my whole point is that it's pretty irrelevant whether one labels one’s self as Liberal or Conservative. This is mostly just a function of family and local culture anyway. But it is beautiful to note that neither “side” wants to lay claim to the current bunch, or to the gaggle of schmucks vying to replace them. The important points are, we are all human and though we may disagree about how to get is, almost all want liberty for ourselves and our children and know we can't have it without affording it to others and coming together to fight for it. The people who control our government from behind the scenes, the people who tricked us into instituting the "Federal" Reserve, and about whom many presidents have warned us, care nothing for liberal, conservative or whatever. They only care about expanding their own power. Their most fundamental and potent instrument is the exponential social energy they generate by money-creation and debt through international banking. With this as their base, they use every other trick in the book to subjugate the masses worldwide. One such trick is "Create the problem, offer the solution." The great depression, both world wars, and countless conflicts to this day, were and are fostered largely to serve this tactic. Another is "Back both sides and you’ll own whoever wins" This was also done in both world wars, plus the Russian revolution; all participants got their money from the same international banking cartel. Disinformation, secrecy, coercion, assassination and of course torture are all in their bag of tricks. But divide and conquer is a huge one for them. I hope all liberty loving people worldwide will come to see through this ruse, and resist the temptation to condemn each other broadly based on the labels we've seen fit to adopt.
[For an outstanding treatment of the subjects of international banking and it’s historical ramifications, find the following on google video: “Money As Debt” by Paul Grignon” “The Creature From Jekyll Island” by Ed Griffin, and visit www.themoneymasters.com/ and www.RonPaul2008.com.
Yours in liberty,
Eric S. Dauré
No Subject
That's why I Registered republican to vote for paul in the primaries, he's gonna defintely win this one.
Pathetic religious freaks
You are no better than GWB
That’s the thing with you religious folks. You waste all this energy with debating who’s interpretation of what ever antiquated religion is better. Put one of us Atheist in charge and we would just do what it takes to make the world a better place. May have to break a few eggs to make that omelet, but it’s a mighty big omelet.
Don’t you see this is just another religious war? Are all religious people just blinded to the fact that every war is there fault. All religions are an embarrassment to mankind. So sad that 90% of the race of man is that ignorant. What a pathetic stumbling block.
“Man kind destroys itself do to conflicts over who’s invisible, wholly inconceivable magic deity is the real one.”
Simple Atheist rules for mankind.
LIVE A LIFE OF FREEDOM
Rule #1. Do nothing to interfere with an others ability to live free.
Rule #2. If you cant abide by rule one, then you will be removed from mankind.
The End
Dude, you have issues.
Blaming religion for the evils of mankind? How original.
You are proof that Atheism has freaks too.
who would Jesus torture?
Yeah that's right, Jesus never got violent with anyone...
Yeah, he never made a whip and "drove" the people out of the temple...
not everyone just runs away when someone's swinging something, lots of people would fight back. I'm gonna guess he had to seriously "beat" people to get them out...
As for saying that all conservatives know where "every gram of illegal and contraband radioactive substances on the face of the earth" are...you are absolutely right!
Conservatives pay attention to these things over a period of 20 yrs instead of 3 or 5....
A.) There's a difference between Weapons of Mass Destruction and Nuclear Arms...We gave Iraq Biological Weapons of Mass Destruction in the '80's. Stockpiles of them. We only found a few Sarin Gas weapons (3 soldiers died from exposure in Baghdad in 2005)(which are technically WMD's). I never read any intel from the beginnning saying Iraq had any Nuclear arms, I only heard WMD's. Most liberals cannot destinguish such simple differences.
B.) Conservatives are worried about Nuclear arms in Iran and Georgia (not the state, but part of the old USSR), only because Liberals don't hear about Georgia on NPR, Conservatives only seem worried about "Islamic" issues. They are made to seem like they focus on an area only because of a religious value. This is the way they are portrayed so that they seem like they don't "think" but instead, rather, "feel." Conservatives do know where all of that radioactive material is, because they honestly keep track of it. They don't just listen to what others say, and then "rally behing the cause."
C.) People that truly desire peace desire resolution of a conflict. Any conservative or liberal that truly wants peace or wants to stop others from being killed, and wants to resolve a conflict. Pacifists (who are different than those that want peace) merely desire that which requires them to do the least. If 10,000 people were going to die, and 1 of 2 people knew how to stop it, if time and resources had been exhausted, is it worth harming a guilty and maybe even an innocent man to save 10,000 people? Some people say that they don't have the "moral authority" to make a choice like that. They would say that God should make that kind of a choice. I guarantee that both liberals and conservatives would say the same thing here...
Liberals would walk away and do nothing because they have no "moral authority".
Conservatives would get down on their knees and beg God for an answer, and then they would go do what was neccessary.
Conservatives enjoy inflicting pain?
First of all, NoMoreOilWars, your "comment" should have been posted as a simple link to your blog since you've hogged 2 pages of space. Secondly, a Conservative does not equal a Torturer as you mention in your last sentence. Please see: http://homeworktips.about.com/od/politicalscience/f/conservative.htm.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you meant to say that voting for a war-mongering politician such as Giuliani, Romney, Hillary or Edwards may lead to continued torture.
Get the truth out of Mukasey
I think waterboarding Mukasey is the perfect way to get him to confess the truth about waterboarding being torture. He obviously knows the truth, he's just not saying. And in this time of war we have to bend the rules to protect our freedom.
Do the ends justify the means?
That's the real question. There's no doubt in my mind that if I thought "waterboarding", pulling fingernails, defecating on the koran, etc. would save an American it would be a good thing. I'm American and lets be honest, blood is thicker than water. With that said, do the ends justify the means? If we were safer, is it okay to be safer at the expense of someone else? Is it okay to eavesdrop on one American? Just one? What about just a little torture, nothing permanant. Is that kosher? I don't think so.
As an American there are a few things I stand for. As a republican, can't believe I'm saying it, but Bush crossed the line. With his wire taps, torture, black cells, etc. he has crossed the line. Maybe one of them I could have looked the other way, but as a whole our freedoms - and the very charachter of our nation - has been tarnished. No, Hillary can't fix it. Obama can't. No, Newt can't either, nor Juliani. I don't know who can fix it, but the current crop of good-for-nothing politicians we have on both sides makes me sick. I'm ready to take back this country from the infidels (that would be the Democratic and Republican parties)... That's my 2 cents anyways
Waterboard torture (Is it necessary)
We should forget about torture and just give truth drugs. Most people would admit or say anything just to have the pain stop. If you do need to torture sombodydo it in a way that they dont know they are telling everything they know. Put them in a pressure lock, crank it up to five to six atmospheres for five minuts and the decompress rapidly. Nitrogen Narcosis will have you babbeling like there is no tommorow. Usualy there isn't when you do this five or six times.
To keep things fair, lets not forget the other demos too
Suicide Bombinb demo
Roadside IED demo
Beheading demo
Insurgent ambush demo
Humvee armour piercing grenade demo
I realize two wrongs don't make a right but I am constantly amazed at the people who try to run around and paint this entire thing as the fault of the US while, her troops are taking the brunt of these types of attacks and are dying. Meanwhile at home, uninformed soccer moms with "supports the troops" buttons are running around organizing propaganda events such as this. Hipocracy in its highest form. The world hates us. I am completely aware of that. They don't hate us becasue we are in IRAQ, they hate us because they are taking us up on all this negative "it is our own fault", "it is right for you to hate the US" rhetoric that is freely flowing from these people's mouths. Those people do not speak for all Americans. I believe in free speech so I will stand by the rights of these people to say what they wish but I have the right to not agree with what they are saying. The world will lay off on hating us as soon as we quit telling the world that they should be hating us and that no matter what, it is all our faults.
-a concerned American
hold on a second
Warning: Lots of Devil's Advocacy to follow. It’s also very simple and not a logical juggernaut. And PLEASE, just take it for what it is: a simple, broad explanation of the other side of the argument -- and that’s it.
Why don't human rights activists demonstrate what the terrorists do to US soldiers? Oh that's right, you can't demonstrate it without someone being killed -- that's what bombs and beheadings do.
I'm not saying the war is right, I'm not saying torture is right -- I'm just saying we need to have some wiggle room (don't even bother commenting on my use of the phrase "wiggle room" as an innuendo for "torture" because I’m not here to argue semantics). It's impossible for our government to do what it needs to if we tie their hands. Terrorists are destroying society little by little and now they have our citizens protesting every decision and every step our government takes. Wake up. They’re winning. We might be killing more of them than they kill of us but they’re still spreading fear and causing a rift in our country from an ocean away. Some people are too blinded by their "activism" and general hatred of those in charge to realize what's going on. They can protest or demonstrate all they want but maybe once in a while activists could do something to support the government OR actually do something besides making a ruckus in the street. I'd love to see a group of activists head to Iraq and tell the local terrorist population, “We’re fighting for your rights back in the good ol’ U.S. of A!” Maybe they’d pull a nice blue or yellow hood over their heads before they cut it off instead of a black one. You know, since they’d be so appreciative and all.
The world is in turmoil and the enemy isn’t playing by the rules. The United States Army seems to be doing all they can to set things right in Iraq (I’m not talking about the government, I mean the soldiers on the ground) as well as other areas plagued by this never-ending debacle. I agree that we created the situation (mostly – but not entirely) and we need every advantage to try and rectify it.
Before I finish – I’ve got to mention this scenario (however widely over-used it may be): You’re family is in danger of a looming terrorist attack. Assume that there is a terrorist in custody with the information needed to stave off the attack and save your family. Obviously, the terrorist will not give the information willingly. You can employ a form of “torture” (waterboarding) that probably leaves no LONG-LASTING physical or mental damage (especially compared to other forms of torture). Would you let your family die? This is probably the point when you’re screaming at the screen saying that’s a stupid scenario, that would never happen, not logical, blah blah blah. Well, open your eyes sunshine because there are terrorists who know what we need to know, we do have some of them in custody, we have no gentle way of extracting the information and there IS a family at risk each and every single second these people are allowed to continue. One day it might be your family. One day it might be the whole East Coast. This is not a scenario. This is real.
But in the end I think Rodney King knew what he was talking about. It would be wonderful if we could all just… get along.
Not a Cent
Not a cent to those who do not work to stop the use of torture by the United States government. If money talks, so should the withholding of money.
Join www.notacent.com. Be heard.